In this episode of AyahuascaPodcast.com host Sam Believ has a conversation with Lauren Sambataro on the topics of how mental health affects physical health and vice versa, how Trauma can cause inflammation, how psychedelics can help, BDNF, microdosing and so much more.
Find more about Lauren here
https://www.instagram.com/lauren_sambataro?igsh=ODlyOXhrNG5qOW5i
Her podcast is biohacker babes
https://open.spotify.com/show/4pGQyevVPsSDyRxmYbHER5?si=r0Ysl-H6SMGpOlSv9t-o6A
Transcript
Sam Believ (00:01.418)
to ayahuascapodcast.com as always with you your host Sanbeliev. Today our guest is Lauren Sambataro. Lauren is a functional health coach, she’s a lifestyle and movement coach, she’s a co-host of Biohacker Babes podcast, she’s a former Broadway performer and she helps people transcend their wellness goals. Lauren, welcome to the podcast.
Lauren (00:24.738)
Thank you so much for having me. It’s a pleasure.
Sam Believ (00:28.634)
Lauren, I would like to talk a little bit about your childhood and your background and I think the good segue into it is this question. Is this true that you grew up biohacking?
Lauren (00:40.006)
It is true. Yes. I call, or my sister and I, we call our dad the OG biohacker because he was biohacking in the 80s. That was before really the term was coined. And so I grew up with red light therapy and PEMF, which is Pulse Electromagnetic Frequency. It basically is the energy from the earth harnessed into technology. And really grew up around this curiosity mindset, which is
fueled my entire career and is really informed what I do today, just being more curious about our biology and emotional and spiritual health. So yes, it’s true.
Sam Believ (01:19.334)
Well, the biohacking did you well, I must say. Thank you to your dad. You’re very productive. You’re very active. And I think you’re helping lots of people. So how did you go, how did you start working with, you know, helping people, coaching, lots of things you do, including your work with psychedelics.
Lauren (01:39.834)
Yeah, I think it trailed my own health journey, my own health curiosities. So I grew up performing. I was a dancer and I went to college and wanted to perform professionally. And I did, I went to New York and performed on Broadway. And I got into personal training as a way to protect my physical body. And I really wanted to prevent injuries and make sure that I was in tip top shape and reaching my own health potential. And that really cascaded into learning all about.
how to optimize health in other ways, through nutrition, through sleep, circadian rhythm, through stress management. I realized the physical piece was only one puzzle. And I think as we do in the health journey and most of our careers, we realize it’s just a layer and then you find more layers, you find more layers. And as I was learning and improving myself, I was then able to trail and help others to do the same. So it’s just been such a beautiful journey where it’s like, I learn, I teach, I learn, I teach. And…
You know, the beautiful thing is that it never ends. There’s always more. It’s like an onion. It just keeps on giving.
Sam Believ (02:44.942)
Yeah, I identify with that, you know, I also didn’t come to this work straight away to just I’m going to go and start an ayahuasca retreat, you know, you heal yourself first and then you get so excited. You just want to pass it on. I think it’s a it’s a beautiful way. So you said you were you love dancing as you grew up and then you were a dancer as well. So obviously you had a lot of focus on your body. Let’s talk about that a little bit because you talk a lot about that. You know, you’re a lot of your mental health is below your neck.
Lauren (02:57.984)
Yes.
Sam Believ (03:15.255)
So talk to us a little bit about that. What you learned or understood, you know, how the connection to body can help people heal.
Lauren (03:23.866)
Yeah, I think I’ve been aware of this connection my entire life. I just wasn’t always able to put it into words. And I think that’s mainly based on our educational system and also the way that we address psychology and mental health in this world for so long, it was just a neck up approach, a lot of emphasis on talk therapy and it’s really needed and essential and does a lot of great things in the world. And now that we have this desigmentation, stigmatization of mental illness and mental health.
more people have the resources. But what I think I intuitively knew as a child in having movement and dance be my sort of language and expression and understanding of the world, I realized there was just like this innate wisdom of the body that could really give us a lot of feedback and information about what we need, how we can relate better to ourselves and relate better to the world. And then also just like this really great wisdom on what we need to be healthy and optimal.
So growing up as a dancer, that was just so natural to me. I didn’t realize that it was a way to optimize my health. You know, I came in the back door through personal training and exercise, very like traditional methods of showing up to the gym. I wouldn’t say that was a very intuitive way of connecting with my physical body, but it was a way. And then again, through my own health challenges, I realized, oh my gosh, I’m seeking answers outside of myself.
I’m looking to experts, I’m looking to Google, I’m looking to run kind of these experimentations and looking at data to give me feedback. But what I realized is that my physical body, which most of it is from the neck down, was my best feedback tool. And getting that feedback makes you realize that you have all the tools that you need for healing, right? And one of my greatest mentors always says, like the best way towards healing is radical honesty.
And I believe that if we can be radically honest with ourselves, we do already have those answers. And that’s how psychedelics, I think, helps us so much because it does kind of help us get out of our own way and release these blocks that we have about seeking external answers or external validation. It’s like, no, just trust, trust self, be radically honest. And there’s so much inside of us that can help us get us to where we want to go, essentially.
Sam Believ (05:48.242)
I think the mentor you’re mentioning is Paul Cech, right? Yeah, he’s on my hit list for people to interview for the podcast. So Paul Cech, if you’re listening.
Lauren (05:51.531)
Yes, you know.
Lauren (05:59.19)
That will be the best ever. I hope you can get him. He is the rarest gem.
Sam Believ (06:02.606)
Yeah, if you’re listening, which I know he isn’t, but you know, you send the you send the message to the universe, maybe one day. So I really like that conversation because my very simplistic understanding is like, had this thoughts, bodies, emotions. So if there’s disconnect between two, it doesn’t go far. So we kind of need to find balance there. Let’s talk about you know, the effect of
Lauren (06:24.014)
Mm-hmm.
Sam Believ (06:29.982)
physical health on mental health.
Lauren (06:34.026)
Yeah, they are inextricably linked. I don’t think that we could separate them. I guess it depends how you wanna come into this conversation. There’s so many different ways, but I think because it’s a psychedelic, yeah, go ahead.
Sam Believ (06:46.88)
Let’s do nutrition, gut, eating that direction. Cameron, pull the mouth.
Lauren (06:54.054)
Okay, so how our physical health is supported by what we put into our bodies? Yeah.
Sam Believ (06:59.894)
Mm hmm. So how does physical health through, let’s say through nutrition in that case, translate to our mental health? And we can also talk, I know you love talking about strength training, just you take it from where you like.
Lauren (07:10.422)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (07:17.214)
Yeah, so I always like to think about how our ancestors live. I think there’s so much wisdom that can be gained by just going back to the most traditional ways of existing on this planet. We think about our physical body, which is made up of trillions of microbes and cells and mitochondria, and we have viruses and parasites. We are a sensing organism. And through sensing our external environment, we really pick up.
cues on how our biology is going to be expressed. So a lot of us are familiar now with epigenetics, like we’re born with a certain set of genetic code, but it’s the environment, the environmental cues that really dictate what’s going to be expressed or not. So since the beginning of time, our biology was sensing the environment to get information on how to express and exist. So nutrition and things that we consume, and that could be food, it could be non-food, it could be
you know, processed junk that’s not really food, but it’s still something that we consume. Water is consumed. We could consider thoughts or something that we consume. Anything that is in our sort of dopamine world, consuming content, consuming just any kind of experience is affecting our biology because it’s information. And so we can choose positive information, and I know that’s a little bit of a gray area and subjective, but we can choose more positive information.
to tell our genetic code how to express itself, or we can choose more quote unquote negative inputs and then we could have a more negative expression. And this is a really personalized kind of equation and code. So it’s unique to our own biology. Your bio individuality is separate from my bio individuality and it’s like on a biological chemical level. And so nutrition becomes.
essential because our body is requiring these sort of inputs and cofactors and enzymes through what we consume with food to tell our body how to respond and within that is our mental health. So there’s a lot of supplement and it could come from an actual supplement in a bottle or could come from supplements from food, vitamins, enzymes, cofactors that can either create mental wellness
Lauren (09:39.374)
kind of move us towards a mental illness. Like it is, it’s a large spectrum that we have here. And I think a lot of people may often jump to psychedelics or plant medicine as a fix for mental lack of wellness, I like to say rather than just jumping to mental illness, without looking at the nutritional inputs that are probably dictating your mood, your mental state, your neuroplasticity or the opposite, which would be neurodegeneration.
And I think there’s probably a lot of like really key vitamins that are overlooked things like zinc excellent for mental health magnesium B vitamins that sort of like the top one on my hit list, but I would say for anyone that is choosing psychedelics to increase their mental health we need to consider those inputs in our nutritional choices
Sam Believ (10:32.646)
Looking at your background, I can say you probably need to supplement some vitamin D as well. It’s very dark and cold. I mean, it seems obvious, right, that you know when you go to the gym, you work out.
Lauren (10:39.157)
Yes, yes, essential. Yeah.
Sam Believ (10:49.458)
you automatically feel better, but it’s just hard for us to do. You talk a lot about, so you mentioned nutrients, you talk a lot about that before we even, before they even get to our system, how important it is to eat mindfully. For example, I’ll be honest, when I was preparing for this podcast a few weeks ago, I picked that up and I’ve been trying to eat mindfully. I don’t know how to do it properly. Maybe you can give us some tips, but…
It’s very difficult. It’s so difficult if you’ve never done it because your mind is so conditioned to like, you know, I’m one of those people that gets a plate and before I get something to watch or something to do, I don’t start eating. This is how bad it is. So, um, so I tried it and it’s nice. It’s kind of like if you think about it, then you want to meditate more. You’re gonna eat at least one hour every day. So if you combine that with eating and meditating, that’s pretty great. So can you talk to us a little bit about that?
Lauren (11:47.738)
Yes, eating mindfully. So you’re asking as opposed to eating on the go, eating while you’re rushed or stressed or just not really being present with food.
Sam Believ (11:55.387)
Yeah, like.
Why should we do it and how should we do it?
Lauren (12:01.478)
Yeah, so a lot of what happens, this is many of us, we’re all guilty and victims of this, is that if we don’t eat mindfully, so that could be everything I just said, eating on the go, eating while stressed, maybe eating too quickly, not being present with your food, your body is in more of a sympathetic state. Most of us understand the nervous system now, we have sympathetic, which is more of a fight or flight, and then we have parasympathetic, which is our rest, digest, our down regulation.
And we do want a healthy balance of both, right? We want some sympathetic, we want some parasympathetic, we wanna be able to hit the gas and hit the brake pedal. What happens when you are not eating mindfully is that you are usually eating in a sympathetic state, which means that your digestion is not turned on. Digestion is a crucial component of your metabolism. If your digestion is not optimal, you’re not gonna be absorbing, digesting, assimilating those nutrients that I said are so crucial for mental health.
So we start to see a breakdown in absorption of nutrients, but we’re also perpetuating the sympathetic state. If you’re in a sympathetic state, your body senses and perceives that there’s threat. So I mentioned earlier, like thinking back to ancestral times, we’re always sensing what’s in our environment. Obviously we had a lot more like real stressors, our ancestors did, they were running from wildlife, they didn’t have the comforts of electricity and.
and warm beds, so we have much more cushioned, comfortable lives now, but that doesn’t mean that our bodies are not still sensing. They’re constantly sensing. And if we tell it to be in more of a fight or flight sympathetic state, then again, we’re not gonna digest and assimilate our nutrients, so we’re not gonna have those co-factors and enzymes for good mental health. And we’re just perpetuating sort of that stress response. When we live in a chronically stressed state, we create a chronic.
inflammation states or a pro-inflammatory state. And I believe that mental illness or a lack of mental wellness is a pro-inflammatory state. So we really need to look at our stress management. We need to look at how we’re eating. And you said it so beautifully, like eating mindfully really can be that catalyst for all of these downstream effects and for better mental health. So a lot of times it takes practice. It’s like riding a bike. You have to do it a hundred times before you actually
Lauren (14:23.534)
feel confident and good at it. But just slowing down, like taking a few breaths before you eat, trying not to eat on the go. I know like we can’t be perfect all the time and we should give ourselves grace and compassion for those days that we aren’t perfect. Like don’t judge yourself or get hard on yourself. But your baseline should be that you can sit intentionally and enjoy your food, right? Food is meant to be enjoyed. But in our modern day lives, we’ve become so busy that it’s kind of fallen down the priority list.
I’m encouraging that we move food up the priority list into something that can be enjoyed. We can sit and express gratitude and sit with friends and family. And again, it’s not going to happen every single meal of the day. We do it as often as we can.
Sam Believ (15:06.391)
Yeah, it’s interesting how the once again the ancients have figured out, you know, the prayer before the meal now starts to make more sense if you think about it this way. You say, you know, you say that trauma causes inflammation as well. What is the mechanism of that?
Lauren (15:13.411)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (15:16.851)
It does. Yeah.
Lauren (15:27.838)
Yeah, so again, our bodies are sensing threat. And when we perceive threat, it turns on our immune system. It’s a safety mechanism. Our bodies want us to be safe. They want us to survive and adapt. And so when it perceives threat, so that could be a real threat, like we’re actually in danger, or it could just be a stressor from work or an anxiety about something that’s coming up, our body perceives that it needs to be on alert.
So we create this vigilance in the immune system. So it could just be something in your daily workday or it could be a real trauma. And it could be something, a childhood trauma, we can look at like the ACE scores if you actually lived in a home environment that was traumatic or at any point in your, you know, adolescence through adulthood, if you’ve experienced a traumatic event, it turns on your immune system. And when your immune system is activated, then it simulates this inflammatory response.
Now that’s totally normal. It’s a way to protect your body and to help you come back into homeostasis when that event has gone away or resolved itself. What happens though is that a lot of our bodies are already inflamed from poor food choices, from lack of stress management, from not slowing down, from toxins in our environment. So we’re already in a pro-inflammatory state. So often when we experience a traumatic event, we’re just pouring fuel on the fire.
Now that keeps us in an inflammatory state. And then it comes back to the nervous system. Our nervous system is gonna stay in a more of a sympathetic state. And so they found in research things like PTSD for actually raising inflammatory markers like CRP. It’s one of the most well studied systemic inflammatory markers. We’re seeing higher CRP levels after an event, a traumatic event. When we have higher CRP, the prevalence of PTSD becomes much higher.
They’ve actually even studied like Marines and military before they go off to duty, like just anticipating the stress and trauma that they’re gonna be under increases the prevalence of them coming back to have PTSD because their immune system inflammation is already sort of activated and vigilant. It’s really interesting. So really what we need to focus on is can we recover from that traumatic event?
Lauren (17:49.634)
Can we lessen all of the burdens that are already creating an inflammatory state so that we can recover and come back to homeostasis and find that balance in the nervous system?
Sam Believ (18:00.474)
Yeah, that’s great. It’s strange how in our society we really like to separate the mind and the body in all aspects of it. For example,
Lauren (18:07.714)
Mm-hmm.
Sam Believ (18:10.334)
You know, we focus so much on nutrition and we focus so much on supplements or what, you know, what we do, but how important is the mindset, right? So for example, as I like to say, if you’re stressed all day because you know you can’t eat the piece of cake that you desire so much, it will probably cause you more damage than actually eating the cake. And so yeah, so I really like that, you know.
Lauren (18:27.638)
hahahaha
Lauren (18:33.298)
Absolutely, absolutely.
Sam Believ (18:39.602)
I like that you have this holistic approach where you focus on the mental health, on the physical health and everything else in between. So in your practice, let’s say you’re working with somebody and you’re coaching them in their health and wellness journey, when does the psychedelic come in? When do you choose to introduce them in the work?
Lauren (19:04.842)
Yeah, I think when I sense, feel, or maybe there’s even a very explicit conversation around a mindset block, I think on a deep cellular level or subconsciously, a lot of us don’t even believe in our own healing. And that can be for many reasons. It could be from a childhood trauma, it could be something transgenerational. And we tend to have these blocks, so we’re pattern makers. We may develop this pattern around…
I actually thrive more in a sick and unhealed state because it’s a to do, right? We’re taken care of, there’s something to focus on where healing actually creates this ease and can be a little unnerving to people. Like what do I do when I’m actually healed? I have less things to do, I have less people focused on me. And so I think, and that’s just one example, but I think a lot of times we can kind of perpetuate this idea that the healing will be forever.
And so when I sense with a client that there is a mindset block around the healing, or if there’s just sort of some boundaries in understanding the bigger picture. For example, I’ve had clients that have been very minutely focused on macros or calories or the number of minutes spent in exercise, like these really micro variables that are not really in tune with our comprehensive holistic.
body, mind, and spirit integration. Bringing in psychedelics can really kind of soften that rigidity around those practices and like the hyper focus and vigilance around those variables. It will soften and allow some other doors and windows to open and like the possibility of believing that there can be another way and even an easier way. So I’ve used it for clients that are trying to lose weight. I’ve used it for clients that are really anxious about their health practices. I’ve used it for clients, of course,
mood that just needed the motivation to do the things that they already know they’re supposed to be doing. It’s like, yes, I know I should be exercising. I know I should be eating healthier, more real food, but there’s just something that’s keeping me from doing that. And so we have the softening of these belief structures and also an inherent motivation to start doing the things that we already know to do. So I think there’s a lot of applications, but just in general, I’ve seen it create a lot more ease.
Lauren (21:25.726)
and less rigidity so that we can put one foot in front of the other and do that thing that we know we’re supposed to do.
Sam Believ (21:33.382)
Yeah, that’s beautiful about how important it is to change those mental models because, you know, our words are very powerful and the words we tell ourselves. It’s like if you say, you know, I’m a bad sleeper, before you change your sleep, you need to get out of that pattern.
Lauren (21:51.862)
Yeah, thoughts become proteins, right? You say it and your cells immediately go, oh, okay, that’s the story. Yeah.
Sam Believ (21:58.842)
Yeah, it’s super powerful. I think in my own personal health journey and mental health journey specifically when I started drinking Alaska, the biggest thing that changed was that mindset. I just all of a sudden started believing in myself. And as I did, everything just magically improved. I mean, not magically, there was a lot of work involved, but it’s like you change direction and then if you keep moving in the right direction, even slowly you get there.
Lauren (22:15.875)
Mm.
Sam Believ (22:27.086)
So when you are making that decision and let’s say introducing microdosing in somebody’s schedule in their health journey, how do you choose between microdosing and macrodosing?
Lauren (22:27.214)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (22:44.662)
Hmm, I would say it’s just a general level of interest and readiness. I’ve had people that have come to me and said like, I’m ready, I want to just dive in right straight away. And sometimes I sense that is the right path forward. Of course, we have to kind of discern, are we looking for this big magic pill solution to just take away all the work? In some cases,
there are people saying that have done the work and I really do sense and believe that, you know, doing something deeper could be beneficial. So I think it just is an interplay between the practitioner and the client or the patient to really determine if that feels like the right fit. What I like to do quite often is start with a microdosing protocol to get into that work of clarifying intentions.
setting up really clear routines, starting to work on the lifestyle, the habits, the nutrition, the circadian rhythm, getting sunlight and movement, so that we’re already working on the integration even before we’ve done the journey. So it really sets up the behaviors and then we can go in and do the macro work. And then we follow it with another microdosing journey, which kind of grounds us back into that experience and gets us back into a routine of these.
micro little behaviors every single day so that they get to keep that with them. Right, that’s the big challenge that we all experience in the plant medicine world is how are we integrating? Right, the integration happens no matter what. Are we integrating as best as possible? So I like to really bookend the experience with the micros. And then it’s just really sensing the client and what they’re ready for and.
I think if I sense that they’re sense or determine through lab work and our work together that there is a pro inflammatory state. A lot of times I’m not going to recommend jumping into a macro journey because I think that in itself could potentially be traumatic in itself. Like I want the body to already have a level of homeostasis. Of course, we know that plant medicines are naturally homeostatic and adaptogenic and antibacterial and antiviral. There’s all these amazing things.
Lauren (24:57.558)
But we have to look at the entire vessel and like, what is it already sensing? What kind of story is gonna be told if we drop into a really large experience? So it just takes some discerning to determine what I might recommend. And then making sure that you get like a heck yes from the client, right? Like they intuitively have to believe and be ready for that experience.
Sam Believ (25:19.246)
Yeah, with dosing as well, you talk about bio individuality. People also need to be careful with that because depending on your, your microbiome or your mental state and bunch of other factors, you also need, you can need more, you can need less. And especially with ayahuasca, it’s very complicated because sometimes you get a 40, 40 kilos, 80 pound lady and she takes three cups of ayahuasca and she doesn’t feel much. And then you can have a.
Lauren (25:34.606)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (25:47.316)
Yeah.
Sam Believ (25:49.1)
50 pound guy take half a cup and be completely blown away and the next night they change around so it’s difficult. It’s less so with let’s say mushrooms but…
Lauren (25:56.403)
Yeah.
Yeah, so interesting. Size doesn’t really equate. There’s no kind of a chart to reflect to, I’m sure.
Sam Believ (26:08.486)
Yeah, I took a microdose once and I think it was maybe a little bit more instead of like 0.15 grams, I think maybe it was 0.3, 0.4 and I spent, you know, a couple hours just rolling on the grass and crying, maybe because I needed to, right? And as you work through…
Lauren (26:23.574)
Wow. Yeah.
Sam Believ (26:27.838)
through those states, sometimes you can find them easier and you can kind of also get, you know, set setting and then there’s also a third S that my chief facilitator coined, which is the skill. And I think it makes a lot of sense. So talking about microdosing, I know you mentioned the microdosing and BDNF. Can you tell people about it? I think it’s really interesting.
Lauren (26:39.811)
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Lauren (26:53.566)
Yeah, I think that’s one of the benefits of psychedelic medicine is this idea that we have a neuroplastic or a plastic brain, which is the ability to respond and adapt to our environment. Again, it’s a sensing mechanism. And based on old research, if the brain was just rigid and not able to change, of course, we know now that it can that we can change it. So that’s a big thing that we’re chasing with plant medicines is this neuroplasticity. And then it’s like, what are we doing?
to create new, more positive neural networks, we get that same effect from exercise. We get neuroplasticity and mechanism is through BDNF, brain-derived neurotrophic factor, which I like to call brain fertilizer. It’s like feeding the little Chia Pet so that it grows, but of course there’s a little more work and intention because we wanna make sure it grows in the right direction. But we can get that same kind of release of these, what we would say like happy chemicals and that.
feeling of motivation and energy that we all get after we work out. If we can just get to the workout, like you mentioned, it’s very hard to get started. And so that’s where microdosing is great because it kind of builds up this inherent motivation. It’s a little harder to get someone to the gym without that, but for most people, I think everyone has experienced this. You feel so much better after you go and that’s your BDNF, right?
And so BDNF is feeding that neuroplasticity. So then it’s like, oh, the world is your oyster. There are so many possibilities. You believe that you can conquer the day. You’re naturally motivated and you have more brain clarity and purpose. And so you are gonna be more productive. You’re gonna feel like the best version of yourself. So that’s one of those lifestyle principles that I always put into place with a microdosing protocol. We wanna make sure we have these lifestyle factors kind of pillowing the microdose because
you can take exercise with you through the rest of your life. In my opinion, I don’t want people to be on microdoses forever. I want them to get in there with clear intention. We wanna do the integration and then hopefully not need it anymore. I do think you’re gonna always need some exercise, right? Like, ancestrally, we moved. We picked up rocks, we moved, we ran. And I just think that’s such a beautiful thing that we can right now affect our mental wellness by moving our bodies.
Lauren (29:13.962)
And it doesn’t have to be traditional gym setting. It can just be something that brings you joy, like chasing your dog or going for a hike or anything in nature really. So that’s the other beautiful thing. You get to choose what that is for you.
Sam Believ (29:31.347)
I have a question for you. So you work with lots of clients I assume and you said that you like to do testing, do lab testing and be really grounded in the information. Have you noticed when you introduced microdosing or megadosing of psychedelics, have you noticed any blood chemistry, anything interesting or improvements or the other way around?
Lauren (29:43.918)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (30:22.22)
Oh, I
Lauren (30:28.03)
I’m anti-viral, all of these things. It’s anti the stuff that could potentially take us down. So it is supporting the microbiome, it’s supporting our inflammation or oxidative stress. So I’m seeing a very gentle shift, though I don’t think that it would be awesome to do a meta analysis about this, right? Like I don’t have enough data at this point to say definitively, like it’s absolutely changing blood markers, but I think I’m seeing the right direction to say like, this is a pretty good hunch.
And yes, I would believe over time it is going to affect the blood markers in a positive way.
Sam Believ (31:04.671)
We’ll get the data eventually over time. I had maybe 10 episodes ago, I had a very interesting guest on the podcast. Her name is Joqueta Handy. And.
Lauren (31:06.959)
Yeah.
Lauren (31:15.598)
Yes, I know her. We went through the third wave program together. Yeah.
Sam Believ (31:21.678)
Nice, she spoke about how psychedelics and ayahuasca specifically seals the leaky gut. There’s been some studies and it was really interesting to know because obviously if you seal the leaky gut, last pathogens go on the bloodstream so you should probably see it. And hopefully, you know, before you come here to the wire, which I know you will eventually, you can test and then test afterwards and we’ll have a good end of one to sort of
Lauren (31:44.512)
Yes.
Sam Believ (31:49.972)
building on top of it. Great. Can you tell us a story about how microdosing helped you to write an ebook?
Lauren (31:51.346)
I love it. You can have all my data. Yeah.
Lauren (32:03.59)
Yes. It almost feels so insignificant at this point, but that was my introduction into microdosing. A friend of mine tried mushrooms and said, hey, you got to try this. And I trusted him. He’s a very trusted friend. And I had been sitting on this desire for writing an ebook. And I had this narrative that had been running in my brain for I don’t know how long that said, I’m not creative. I’m a bad writer. And I’m
I think the narrative was that I was lazy, though my rational brain understands me to not be so. But that was sort of the story that was running. And so I started microdosing and overnight the ebook was done. And you know, it wasn’t a long ebook, it was maybe 25 pages, which is why I kind of labeled it as insignificant. But that really opened up my eyes to kind of dissolving these rigid belief structures that were holding me back. And it taught me that
really, again, the world could be my oyster and I can achieve great things if I can dissolve these patterns. So that was my introduction into it. And so I’ve run many experiments since then. But in that moment, it helped me release that procrastination and actually be productive. It was pretty cool.
Sam Believ (33:23.194)
and no chat GPT involved, correct?
Lauren (33:25.846)
No, yeah, that was before chat GPT. If only I had that too, I would have written a 300 page book. Yeah.
Sam Believ (33:30.346)
Yeah.
Sam Believ (33:34.766)
It’s funny how you mention beliefs again. I used to believe I was lazy as well. I was, I could be the master at doing absolutely least amount of work necessary to not be fired and still be considered a good worker. But I knew I could do much more. But this belief greatly changed when I started doing my own projects. Now I’m a workaholic and I cannot, even Ayahuasca is not helping me. I can’t stop working. I just enjoy it so much.
Lauren (33:52.408)
Yeah.
Lauren (33:59.714)
Hmm.
Sam Believ (34:05.899)
So yeah, it’s all about beliefs and they’re very, very important. You talk about psychedelics as a form of hormesis as well.
Lauren (34:20.734)
Yeah, so, okay, what is the easiest route to connect those to? I think, again, if we look ancestrally, our bodies got to where we are today with the human species by responding to stress. So adapting, thriving, and recovering from that stress. So again, looking at the nervous system and the immune system, going through acute periods of stress. That’s what hormesis is, acute bouts of stress.
So not chronic stress, but an acute, meaning there’s a beginning and a very clear end. And then there’s a rebound effect where we get stronger, more resilient, more adaptable. And there’s a lot of ways we could look at that through psychedelics, but perhaps even just looking on a micro level with microdosing, we get this acute dose and the rebound effect is the dissolving of these belief structures so that we are stronger, more resilient, more believing.
And I think on a more macro level, of course, it just amplifies that entire experience. But these are very acute, like structured and clear settings with the idea that on the back end, we’re going to integrate. So maybe that’s the relation to hormesis is that we have a short bout of what could be stressful and stress isn’t always bad, right? It’s just a change to the inputs on our biology. So we get this acute positive stressor.
And then we allow for space for our bodies to adapt, respond, get stronger, more resilient. So that’s really the goal with the psychedelics is to not need it forever. We go in with clear intention and then we integrate and we’re stronger and we could go on to another lesson. And of course, our lives are dynamic and always changing. There’s going to be new challenges. So again, we’re always peeling back the layers of the onion. But I think the real relation to hormesis is that it needs to be acute and small.
and we’re really focusing on what is the integration after.
Sam Believ (36:16.23)
I’ve definitely noticed it in myself as well when you go into let’s say ayahuasca ceremony it is hormetic for sure. It’s very tough on your system both physically and mentally of course because it’s you know people say it’s like 10 years of therapy but 10 years of therapy is a lot of activity and sometimes you get a headache just because of how many thoughts you have. But then afterwards I do notice with good integration I do notice that I’m more sharp
Lauren (36:26.154)
Mm.
Sam Believ (36:46.384)
was before that I can attest to. So there’s definitely, let’s say with exercise, physical exercise, hormesis is you raise muscles, you break your muscle tissue and then it rebuilds itself. There’s something similar happens in the brain. It would be great to have some kind of studies on the topic.
Lauren (36:47.758)
Hmm.
Lauren (36:58.083)
Yes.
Lauren (37:07.63)
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And I think there is a lot that is discomfort, right? Like our ancestors were naturally uncomfortable all the time, which is how they got stronger. Now in our modern day lives are very, very comfortable. So we can use psychedelics as that source of discomfort to work through whatever our subconscious wants us to know. And as you said, on the back end, you generally feel a lot better.
Sam Believ (37:32.282)
Yeah. Can you tell us about four agreements?
Lauren (37:36.972)
Oh, the four agreements. Yes, I love this book. Are you familiar with the book?
Sam Believ (37:42.51)
No, I only learned it from you, from preparing to this podcast. So this is…
Lauren (37:47.038)
Okay, I highly recommend the book. I wonder if it’s on my bookshelf so I could pick it up. I think it’s on my other bookshelf. So the four agreements, let me see if I can even remember these off the top of my head. So I do a lot of metabolic health coaching, and I’ve used these four agreements in my metabolic health coaching because I think it can pertain to every area of life, but it’s meant to be more of a self-help book. So the four agreements are, do your best.
Easy one, do your best. Don’t take anything personally. And actually there are now five agreements. You Googled them?
Sam Believ (38:18.942)
Mm-hmm.
Sam Believ (38:23.784)
Mm-hmm. I googled them. Yeah, so I’m checking, I’m checking. If you miss something, I’m here to support you.
Lauren (38:30.97)
Um, be skeptical, but use discernment. What did I get? Don’t, don’t make assumptions. Yes. Did I get five? Don’t think things personally. Assumptions, be skeptical, do your best. I need help.
Sam Believ (38:37.352)
Don’t make assumptions, it says, but same.
Sam Believ (38:42.718)
The last one, you need help?
Sam Believ (38:51.758)
Be impeccable with your word, it says.
Lauren (38:54.946)
Beautiful, be impeccable with your word. Yeah, so I kind of think that they speak for themselves, but it’s interesting you bring that up because I use it a lot in my metabolic health coaching when we’re using data, which data can inherently feel very like anti-intuition, anti-wisdom of the body, maybe not so holistic, but in some cases data can be very revealing because it uncovers blind spots.
Sam Believ (39:01.374)
What are those? How do you use them?
Sam Believ (39:06.982)
Mm-hmm.
Lauren (39:22.178)
So in my work, I really like to pair the subjective, so our intuitive body or wisdom or learned experiences, how we feel our symptoms with objective data. So that could be lab work, it could be data wearables like a CGM or something that tracks our sleep like the Oura ring. And balancing the two can be really helpful. So the four agreements really take care of the blend or filling the gap in between. So with data,
we don’t take anything personally because our body is a very intelligent, sensing, adaptable mechanism. And so nothing is personal to us, it’s our body taking care of us and trying to keep us safe. So that relates to psychedelics quite well if we can trust in that process, our body is gonna take care of us. Whichever, whatever one relates really well. I think the…
Being skeptical, that is probably my favorite one. I think skepticism, or I like to say, like a healthy amount of skepticism really keeps us safe, but it also keeps us in the learning, in the growth. So if we can question and always come back to our own intuition and wisdom, we can gather the information, know what’s for us, trust what is for us, and then still take action, take the next step forward.
And with that step forward and taking that action, of course, we have to be impeccable with our word because that’s honesty, that’s honoring ourselves, it’s honoring everyone around us and doing our best. If we’re doing our best, then we are most likely are choosing growth and getting stronger, more resilient, and more adaptable. So it’s kind of a quite large way of being or relating to the world, but I think it pertains to so many areas of our health. So.
Those are my four agreements, five agreements that I like to live by.
Sam Believ (41:12.982)
Yeah, I can see how I could translate them into something that can help people integrate their psychedelic experience as well. So but this is useful and we’re learning and it’s great. So I really like your approach to health. I like how it’s balanced and you balance the physical, the mental and I’m on the same page with you.
Lauren (41:23.166)
Mm-hmm.
Sam Believ (41:42.888)
one of the very few ayahuasca retreats that has a functioning gym because yeah we have a gym we have like you know the squat rack and punching bag which is great also great form to release the anger if necessary because i believe in the same things i think there is this beautiful way we can balance
Lauren (41:48.317)
Oh really?
Lauren (41:56.831)
Yeah.
Sam Believ (42:07.082)
uh… you know mental health physical health but and also with productivity and the community i think those together like the pillars that can really that’s you know that’s what what’s missing right now in the society at large so this what we try to create here would be great to have you over one day as i told you and before we started recording you are invited and uh… and yet
Lauren (42:19.191)
Mm.
Lauren (42:24.884)
I can’t wait to come.
Thank you.
Sam Believ (42:34.542)
It’s been very interesting and I think I had a few more questions, but they’re kind of irrelevant. I think they felt relevant, but I think we kind of already addressed a lot of them from the other side. Lauren, where can people learn more about your, let’s say they would be interested in your coaching, where can they find you?
Lauren (42:42.434)
Hehehehe
Lauren (42:55.766)
Yeah, you can find me on my website, laurinsambatero.com, or on Instagram, which is where I spend the most of my time and that’s where we connected, lauren underscore sambatero. And maybe put that in the show notes because there’s a lot of letters. But thank you so much for having me. And I also have a podcast that’s called The Biohacker Babes. I host that with my sister.
Sam Believ (43:10.974)
Good, yeah.
Lauren (43:20.15)
And we talk all things biohacking. So there’s a good chunk of psychedelics in there, but everything that can optimize your brain, your body and your emotional health.
Sam Believ (43:31.294)
That’s great. Great name for the podcast as well. Um, guys, thank you for listening to Ayahuasca podcast. And, uh, our guest today was Lauren Sambataro and, uh, hope you enjoyed this episode.
Lauren (43:33.794)
Thank you.
Lauren (43:45.026)
Thank you so much.